The Weckl Zone

[XNavyDrummer]

blake1 brought up a good question in the last topic:

"In all seriousness- In what ways do you think Dave is impoving? Do you think his ability to play music is deeper because his musical choices are more mature?- and/or is it the sheer time spent sitting on a set of drums that makes him sound more at ease with the music?"

I know Dave has spent some serious time shedding. But it's not just the time, it is the "attention to detail" (as pocketplayer alluded to) and especially the attention to the basics, the sound and the musicality that catapults him to such a high level of excellence and "flow".

Talk about that "musical microscope"... I'm just now discovering what he means by that...

(Thanks again Steve for such a cool place to hang out.)

[FuseU1]

... but then he was a bada** way back even b4 he played w/ Chick [started w/ him around '85 or so, tour'g even b4 the 1st Elektric Band rec'd'g.] Weckl's groove is absolutely phat, his technique awesome, he can handle any musical bag/style authentically & w/ ease ['heard any of his latin or reggae playin lately?!], & his phrasing unsurpassed [equalled, perhaps - but not surpassed]; arguably 1 of the absolute freakin best, in my humble opinion [alongside VC & all the rest of the 'chosen ones' we type about] ... & it appears he's 1 of [if not THE] most successful 'drummers-as-solo-artists' these days [next to Buddy, Krupa, & a coupla select others, maybe]; what w/ all his solo CDs & all [VC only has one - whassup wihdat?] ....

[mja61]

Fuse, I think you hit it right on the head about Dave being one of the most successful drum solo artists out there. Steve Smith seems to be doing pretty well also, but I can't think of too many others (besides Buddy and Gene).

Dave has been one of my favorite drummers since I first heard the "Spur of the Moment" Sound Supplement in MD many moons ago. I certainly think his playing has matured and evolved, but I'm not sure his playing has "improved" in every way. He's really at a high level now, but I sort of miss the Weckl of yesteryear. Ditto for Smith: at an unbelievably high level, but lacking some of that late-'80's power and funkiness. Dennis Chambers and Vinnie have brought things to a higher level, and yet have maintained the power and sound that defined them in the '80's and early '90s.

At a Dennis Chambers clinic (about 1997), Dennis made some rather derogatory comments about the "previous" Weckl. He then said that Dave completely changed his approach and was starting to sound good. So I guess their are two schools of thought regarding Dave in the first half of his career, even among top drummers.

[royerin]

I agree that Weckl has come a long way over the years - not to say he ever sucked, but the improvement and maturation is obvious. However, in my opinion, he's nowhere near the same league as Vinnie. He can play any style convincingly - just look at his bio - and while Weckl may be able to play just about anything, he's not the one getting called to play with Sting, Alejandro Sanz, Chaka Khan or whoever. Maybe it's a choice of Weckl's to be a "drummer's drummer", just like it was Vinnie's choice to be a session musician, but while Vinnie still manages to do plenty fusion gigs, Weckl (more or less) ONLY does fusion gigs. I'm afraid I have to disagree with you (Fuse) on the subject of phrasing. This is the main difference between the two drummers in my opinion. Weckl's phrasing is great, don't get me wrong, but after a while it's predictable, whereas Vinnie's phrasing continually baffles just about everyone. His entire CONCEPT of rhythm is far more advanced, and that Vinnie pocket has always been there. The stuff he played in the early days was WAY ahead of it's time (Zappa, Gino Vannelli, Joni Mitchell). He was being cited as the best drummer in the world back in the mid 80's, after only 5 years or so on the scene! What's up with THAT? Why only 1 solo CD? Probably because he's too busy playing music for a living, and that's not the type of player he is (at the moment anyway.) You also have to remember that Vinnie is probably the only successful drummer NOT to release an instructional book or video. He says the reason for this is because he could put the book out one week and the next week be thinking something completely different, and so he would want to change what he'd previously written. I think this gives him an extra "edge" over the other guys too. In my opinion. The End.

[blake1]

I once heard an analogy of Weckl being today's Buddy Rich (phrasing more with 16th and triplets and being a soloist leader) Sorry, I know Dave has gotten past 16th and triplets these days.
Vinnie seems to transcend the moniker of drum clinician/leader. He also always stood out with his phrasing. I know Steve Smith has checked out some of the same books and teachers as Vinnie, but somehow Vinnie always seems a little further out in (in Space) his concept of polyrhythms and metric-modulations. It appears that Vinnie analyzed these rhythms and immediately ingested them into his playing- his own way. He never sounds like it came from a book! Damn, too much writing! I gotta practice ...
Blake

[PocketPlayer]

I enjoy hearing you guys ping-pong back and forth like this. I did a post sometime ago titled, "The 7 Habits"
What I was hoping for in that post relates to the thoughts expressed in this post XNavy started. What are the elements or habits of a great drummer? When we discuss cats like Dave or Vinnie, let us humble ourselves and realize we are discussing two of the greatest drummers that have ever graced this planet. When I was in college, there were music rooms filled with guys and gals practicing...all the time. Multiply this with college and high school kids practicing all over the US and the world on every major college campus, music academy, and the like. These guys are the best of the best of the best...you get the idea.
I do strongly feel we can all learn a tremendous amount from men like Smith, Weckl, Chambers, Gadd, Colaiuta, Phillips, Donati, Erskine, Purdie, Porcaro, etc., Yet, in this list of drummers' drummers, there is a handful that rise to the top. I would enjoy a post on guys who feel passionate about a particular drummer and to "really" explain why they feel that way. Most are partial to either Dave or Vinnie in this forum, but it would be a good read if you have another or want to elaborate on Dave or Vinnie in the way XNavy is striving for.
Maybe it is Dave's new marriage, but he was on another planet at the HBowl the other night. Yet, in another forum I mentioned that when I saw Vinnie at the Jazz Bakery recently w/Virgil D, Vinnie seemed so creative-the way he did things. It was not a technical brilliance, it reminded me of Jim Keltner or something. He just did different things Virgil or Dave or??? just don't do. It's Vinnie!
One reason I really like Steve's analysis of Vinnie and Dave is he includes so much specific reference to support his thoughts.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 31, 2002 04:43 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ August 31, 2002 04:46 AM: Message edited by: PocketPlayer ]</font>

[FuseU1]

This has all been covered several times b4 ... & it always seems to end up on the 'who's better - Vinnie or Dave?' I tend to try to not look at it in this way, & it really doesn't appear that a guy like Steve H does either. As I've said b4, Vinnie [since '84] has long been my personal favorite - & amongst drummers & musicians who know anything about music - we all realize what Pocket said - these guys are the best of the best ... I mean, why else would there even be a "VC/DW, & the likes-of" forum? But when I 1st heard DW on the scene [ some1 at a local music retail store had a live NYC club Chick bootleg - I wish I had this 1 - play'g over the speaker/intercom system in one of the store's back rooms around '85], I was blown away just like when I heard Zappa's 'Shut Up n Play Yer Guitar' 4 the 1st time. Then came the CCEB[1] official release, & it was cinched. When I 1st heard King Cockroach, Rumble, Sidewalk, Silver Temple, & esp., GOT A MATCH - well, now I had 2 fav drummers [awa quite a few others that most of us had.] But like Stv H says, these 2 guys r really the 'creme de la creme' [spell'g?], & we've come 2 add guys like Den C, Gary N, Virg, Marco M, R Gratton, Enzo T, J Heredia, D DiCenso, etc, to that list. There ARE other great players out there, but these guys r the ones really push'g the limits of rhythm as it applies to drumming & the drumkit - but now I'm simply re-gurgitat'g what I've always been say'g, & what Stv H has had posted on his site 4 a while now. [even Stv now puts those other guys in his 'news/update' sect'n.]
OK, now that that's been said, I like what Pock said about lean'g towards specific refs in ea.'s play'g. I was talk'g to a really good local-prof-drummer-friend of mine last week [he's actually done some gigs w/ Al DiMeola & Gumby Ortiz, & many others] at his jazz/latin gig [do they really still pay 2 c this type of stuff around here?!], & he was comment'g on VC & DWs brilliance [long been his pers favs AW]. He made a comment that was very interest'g - he said, "I think VC, DW, DC & VD are the greatest, but, VC & VD, & sometimes DC, tend to play very 'drumistically' more often than does DW." Then he went on to say he thought "Will Kennedy was one of the most truly musical [for-the-sake-of music] drummers he'd ever heard." Now, to a lot of us, this would sound like 'splittin musical hairs;' an 'anarchy' of sorts, if u will; but I think he makes a valid point. Not nec. that those other guys arent musical [which would be outright stupidity to say], but that a guy like DW, or even more so WK or ERSKINE, tend to play a little less the 'hello, I'm a bada** f'n drummer & I wantcha to hear it in this fill/polyrhythm/unique drummistic type phrase,' & more the 'I'm gonna fit the exactly right musical statement that doesn't nec. reflect on my extreme drum'g prowess at this moment, yet enhances what the other players are tryin to say ' type approach [NOT THAT I HAVEN'T HEARD VINNIE DO THIS - & QUITE OFTEN, THESE DAYS AWA his "drum'g-sneak-attacks"!!]. Now, I've heard DW do the former quite often AW, but I thot this was an interest'g angle on what we talk about here. I know I'm gonna get feedback on this 1, but let me re-iterate, again - VC is my all-time fav, much like many of u [simply because he's fantastic - & "I'm a freakin DRUMMER, 4 God's sake!"] [I also dig Will & Ersk, big-time, AW!]
But, since I'm startinda ramble here [obviously I coulda been a 'novelist' AW], then Blake's comment comes 2 mind [most truthful 1 @ that!]: 'too much typin when I should be practicin!....'

[FuseU1]

OK - after hav'g practiced awhile [!] ... sorry if I ever sound a lil bit pretentious sometimes, guys [I try not to, but it's hard when there's so much to say!] ... altho Ersk. is not quite at the same 'chops eschelon' level as VC, DW, VD, & DC; he IS a truly great drummer, TRULY; & 1 of the pioneers of jazz, if u will; he IS jazz [like Elvin, DeJohnette, & Haynes]. Man, this guy swings [at any tempo] like there's no tomorrow, grooves like a freight train [check out Steps Ahead, 'Magnetic'], & he does have chops to go w/ it ... & Will K is 1 of my abs. FAV. drummers - ANY Yellowjackets [w/ Ferrante/Haslip/Kennedy/Mintzer], but esp. 'Greenhouse, Dreamland, Like A River, Blue Hats, Run 4 Your Life' - his gruvs r superb, he's extremely musical, & has great chops - phenomenal! - & what a nice guy! OK! I've hogged enuf space [4 now].

[MethodAir]

I personally don't see the need to fundamentally compare Weckl with Colaiuta. Sure, you can compare some of the differences in phrasing that they use, etc..but in the end, they will come down to two different drummers. It's great that they are both around.

MethodAir
www.electricmountain.com

[marklucas]

keep in mind that this is just my opinion,but no one can do what Vinnie does behind a drumkit.He is in a place all his own. Weckl is my other favorite,but I like the older stuff before the DWB.Don't get me wrong,the DWB stuff is awesome. I have all the cd's,but I just happen to like the older stuff better.I wish I had that Yamaha cherry wood finish kit that he played.

Colaiuta-Weckl-Novak-Steve Smith and Zach Danziger is all you need to listen to!